ECU for G200W

twincamTG · Post by **twincamTG** » 27 Nov 2005, 06:41

hey all,
i'm running a standard G200W in my gemmi and having problems with the computer. just wondering what my options are for getting another one.

i don't want to get another standard one becase they are crap anyway and hard to get so do i get a DIY megasquirt or go for something like a microtech?

anything to help would be appreciated.

cheers,
alan.

Post by **Poida** » 27 Nov 2005, 11:04

There are a couple of different original systems used on G series engines.
Can you tell me what type your existing system is?

What is the lettering on the side of the plenum?

What type of air flow meter is on it, a flap or a heated wire?

GeminiCoupe · Post by **GeminiCoupe** » 27 Nov 2005, 12:41

Its a G200W so itd have the I-TEC setup meaning CAS dizzy and hotwire AFM [unless ofcourse, its a 117 Engine. Which way does the throttle body point? Im going to assume its the I-TEC engine so here goes.

Basically, any fuel/ignition ECU would be good. What sort of budget do you have? What do you want out of the car? How modified is it? Your choice will be narrowed down dependant on all these questions.

I personally am a fan of Microtechs and the EMS DualSport computers [partly because i picked up a VERY good EMS DualSport at a ridiculous price]. Pretty much any ECU will run the engine well.

If you intend on leaving the engine relatively standard im going to go against convention and say get a Delco 808. Tuners ask ALOT of cash to tune these [in Melb, its between 600-1000] but the cheap price of ECU and components etc means it works out to the same as an aftermarket. Its also one of the more powerful computers, and is infinitly tunable. The beauty is you get EPA'd, and being a fixed-state ECU [ie. Maps are permanant/un changeable without reflashing], if you pass emissions tests you can legally engineer the car with this computer.

Nick-

Post by **Poida** » 27 Nov 2005, 13:37

Things I really like about the 808 are the ability to pick up spare parts from any wreckers and the prices are dead cheap. Pick up an ECU without MemCal for about $25 (any more than that and tell them to stick it) as well as the fact any cop or EPA dude inspecting it just presumes it's all stock OEM gear.

As said by Nick, don't let anyone tell you the Delco 1227808 is an inferior ECU compared to user programmable aftermarket types. It's not. It has features like knock sensor control and vehicle road speed sensing you probably don't find on anything but the more expensive A/M models. All the sensors and looms are readiy available in most wrecking yards and that is where it excells in my view. A contiuous supply of spares anywhere without needing to pay through the nose and wait a week for them. Even the plug shells are standardised and you can reuse the OEM ones with new contact terminals from Würth.

Looking at some brands, Microtech for example, I can't even find easily accessable support for some earlier ECU models.

Grant it the Delco isn't popular among tuning shops so it tends to inflate the price of the initial setting up if you choose to have a MemCal burnt for your engine but it's robust and durable so the Memcal is unlikely to be damaged unless something goes seriously wrong. Just be sure the tuner keeps a copy of the map settings for you in case it ever needs to be duplicated. That lowers the replacement price considerably.

In the long run I think the delco EMS will pay off as better overall value for money. You'll soon understand what I mean when something goes wrong out of warranty.

Robbo · Post by **Robbo** » 27 Nov 2005, 18:34

I third the Delco 808, however I went the megasquirt(extra) because its cheap, it does everything all the expensive ECU's do and it is easily retunable. I also got it because I needed a fuel+spark computer as I had to do away with the distributor. There is quite a bit to setting up a megasquirt though, its not plug it in and start tuning, so unless you are mechanically minded I would stay away.

twincamTG · Post by **twincamTG** » 30 Nov 2005, 13:17

well for the budget, i'm currently looking towards microtech, and the engine is stock with the i-tech injection.

ive had problems with it and seem to have narrowed it nown to the computer. the problem is that when ignition is on, the engine floods, so the injectors aren't working properly. they are fine cos i just got them checked and overhauled.

and the car has been at the autosparky's gettien the wiring checked and that is all fine.

cheers guys.

Post by **Poida** » 01 Dec 2005, 00:49

Well I'll keep selling the virtues of the Delco 1227808 because there isn't much on the aftermarket menu with the credentials and pedigree to match them.

I'm going to cop an ear bashing from people who spent the money on Microtechs and Wolfs and all the rest but I'm comfortable in the knowledge the good old 808 is an excellent alternative with one thing that none of the others can offer.

Stealth mode...

compared to these...

These sure look attractive but the thing is they cry out 'see me' and they also don't hide the fact they can be user programmed, even in real time. That all sounds great but part of the requirement of an engine mod certificate is it must pass relevant EPA requirements. That means you are not supposed to be capable of dabbling with the tune after it passed the inspection.

The humble looking Delco in it's plain jane case is a powerful ECU just as capable of being retuned, even in real time mode, but on the surface it doesn't look it. A cop and most roadworthy inspection centres will see it as a fixed tune system.

It's overall cost in my opinion is way less than the price it will cost you to set up another branded after market system.

I am working hard at getting started with programming MemCals to fit in a standard 808 with select stocko sensors and hardware that you can pick up at reasonable prices from just about any wreckers. I know I can retune and burn chips to attach in MemCals that look no different to a standard factory fitted one. I'm looking at using different chips to those the OEM Memcals used. They use eproms meaning they can be erased and reprogrammed but a faster and easier way is to use flash memory. I can even run up to 16 different switchable tune packages on a single MemCal. All that and from every angle it appears to be a standard OEM ECU.

I'll start assembling together some articles on what I'm doing and in the future I hope to be offering low cost easy fit EFI conversion kits for standard to sporty Gemini G161Z engines as a starting point. There won't be any fancy hand controller with it but you really don't need that to have a car running well. Having the means to constantly fiddle with it is more a hindrance in my opinion. Leave it alone if it's working well. Why tamper with it? All you can do is make it worse.

If that takes off I will look at expanding to different engines. Most components are readily available at local wreckers and the hardest part will be finding the injection style intake manifold.

gem · Post by **gem** » 01 Dec 2005, 06:45

Poida, I ran the Delco 808 on my twin cam for a few years. I used the 2lt memcal and changed the rev limit to 7500rpm. My engine had the Holden Map,TPS,Air temp and Coolant sensors and IAC valve. I had a damaged dissy so I adapted the stock camira dissy on top of the twin cam housing ( it was a bit long but it did fit in the engine bay) I also used the camira injectors. The car made 80kw@wheels this was the same power when I had twin 45 webers.
I eventually went to a Haltech E6GM which plugs into the Holden loom because I changed the cam and compression ratio. The Haltech had data logging which I used. The Delco system is a very powerful system but the only downside is the online editing. But as I discovered I always pay someone else to tune my car. It is not worth the effort trying to setup the maps on your own.

twincamTG · Post by **twincamTG** » 07 Dec 2005, 15:02

well i like the idea of the Delco 808, what is needed and about how much will it cost to set it up?

Post by **Poida** » 08 Dec 2005, 00:43

It's not a rush job right now but what I'm wanting to do is to set up the Tg of mine as it was originally if I can get hold of an air flow meter. Failing that the next option would be to get a basic Delco setup in order. Some of the existing sensors etc could be used and a few other componets need to be adapted. I'll use the same basic setup as the Astra or Camira uses then slowly alter componets and software as I tweak it.

The easiest way to describe the system requirements is by duplicating the component list in the Astra manual.

Operating Conditions Sensed

* Distributor Reference
- Crankshaft Position
- Engine Speed (RPM)

* Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP)

* Engine Coolant Temperature (CTS)

* Throttle Position (TPS)

* Manifol Air Temperature (MAT)

* Exhaust Gas Oxygen Content (O₂)

* System Voltage

* Park Neutral Switch (P/N) Position

* Vehicle Speed (VSS)

* A/C Request "On or Off"

* Barometric Pressure

The above sensed conditions are processed by the ECU and it then manages these system components:

* Fuel Control
- Fuel Injector/s
- Electric Fuel Pump

* Electronic Spark Timing (EST)

* Idle Air Control (IAC)

* Air Conditioning Clutch

* Engine Radiator Cooling Fan

* Diagnostic
- ECM Light
- Diagnostic Terminal (ALDL)
- Data Output (ALDL)
- Field Service Module

The Astra system runs a reluctor distributor as a crank angle sensor so I'll look at changing my points distributor for an equivelant HEI reluctor type from a different G series or convert my points dissy over.

The only other sensor I need to add is a VSS which I already have in the form of a magnetic trigger adaptor that is part of a cruise control. It generates an electronic signal the ECU can utilise at the same time the speedo cable still drives the speedo head.

I need to look at the AIC unit because my throttle body doesn't look as if I can adapt such a control. I may be able to work around that but if I get stalling coming off throttle suddenly then I'll need to figure a way to bleed controlled air delivery into the idle mixture.

Everytheing else is there, all I need to do is work on the Delco management software then burn a chip for the MemCal.

Robbo · Post by **Robbo** » 08 Dec 2005, 19:31

if you meant AIC as IAC below, as in the little device that lets air straight into your manifold/plenum after the throttle plate, and said you might have problems with stalling coming off throttle, then by my understand (and I could easily be wrong) you are mistaken.

IAC's are for cold engine start up... they let a bit of air through until the engine warms up, which with the ECU enrichening the mixture while it is cold equals higher RPM while cold and no stalling. Thats what my IAC does anyway, and I know lots of other IAC's run like that.

Coming off throttle and stalling is a completely different issue.

Post by **Poida** » 08 Dec 2005, 23:56

No, I meant IAC as in "idle air control" valve.

It's a control valve that regulates a small quantity of air flow into the plenum bypassing the throttle butterfly valve/s. It opens in small increments. The ECU moves the IAC valve in small steps numbered from '0' (fully extended pintle, bypass airway fully closed) to '255' (fully retracted pintle, maximum bypass airflow). The throttle butterfly valve stays fully closed at idle and all idle air flow is controlled totally by this valve. The ECU moves the valve end (pintle) in and out in small steps to keep the idle speed constant. It operates at all times when the engine is at closed throttle.

I'll try to get the LD Astra manual section covering the operation of the Delco ECU scanned and posted. I have the Lada one scanned already and it would be useful too although it uses a different method of ignition and fuel delivery again. The Lada uses a Crank Angle Sensor not unlike those used in the VK Commodore EFI black motor. The Lada has a no distributor and uses a wasted spark coil pack like the VN Commodore. The Astra uses a reluctor based distributor ignition system so an RB conversion will be acceptable as a replacement in that type of system. The Astra and Camira both use both Port Fuel Injection (PFI) and throttle body injection (TBI) depending on which engine it is using. The Lada Niva only uses a TBI fuel delivery system.

For the moment, I'll just try to explain things in words as best I can. It will all make sense once you start reading the manuals I have.

archangel62 · Post by **archangel62** » 12 Dec 2005, 02:52

Would I be right in saying the Delco 808 would suit a G180W too? Is there any way around paying so much to have them tuned?

twincamTG · Post by **twincamTG** » 12 Dec 2005, 17:08

im now getting given a microtech computer off a friend

thanks for the help though.

cheers,
alan

archangel62 · Post by **archangel62** » 13 Dec 2005, 02:09

Can I kidnap this thread now?

Why is it so much to get this computer tuned - and is there any way around it? I'm planning to run my G180W with the stock induction for awhile, then convert to supercharger... Will I need to have it tuned twice, for that kinda money?

GeminiCoupe · Post by **GeminiCoupe** » 13 Dec 2005, 02:27

Simple enough answer to that question. The reason they cost so much to tune is because they cant be done in "real time". With an aftermarket ecu, the tuner makes adjustments on the lap top. With the Delco, you make the adjustment THEN burn it on the memcal, then it takes effect. The downside is that when you go to get it retuned, with, say a microtech you would just reload your old map, use that as a base then adjust. With the Delco, you need to start from scratch, hence $$$$.

I went an EMS DualSport for my Gemini, but only because one came around with loom, hand controller, coil etc at a price WAYYY too good to refuse.

Nick-

Post by **Poida** » 13 Dec 2005, 16:01

No, that is definately not right Nick, the Delco 808 CAN be tuned in real time. I'm just working on the best way to tune in real time at the most economical price.

There is a package on the market called KalMaker. It is a modified 808 with the memcal replaced by a special board with a flash memory chip that can be written over an the fly. The modified 808 also has a port to plug in the laptop. Down sides are it uses protected software and requires a dongle to communicate so unless you have a mate with the KalMaker then you need to invest $1100 to start off. You can set up numerous modified 808 ECU's (each costing $600 to have modified but no dongle or software provided) that can all be calibrated from an existing KalMaker software package so combining with a mate or two is one way to reduce the costs. That's not bad though compared to some packages on the market. If you wanted to remove the modified 808 and slip in a standard 808 ECU with a modified calibration MemCal it will cost you $300 for a reprogrammable MemCal (it is fitted with a security device). It can be reprogrammed as many times as you like. You could also group buy and just purchase extra reprogrammable MemCals for the second, third etc ECU's providing the original KalMaker was available to recalibrate MemCals when required. You would also need an eprom burner to burn the recalibration data to the MemCal.

What I am looking into are some less expensive options which provide the same end product, reprogrammable 808's, like shareware packages developed by people more interested in having a shot at using an 808 but not wanting to operate a business on the whole deal. There is plenty of stuff available. Removing the original eprom from the Memcal and replacing it with a chip that can be flashed or electronicly erased is another idea. These options are already available. You can actually get hold of a shareware package that will tune in realtime mode. You need to make a few mods to the 808 but it can be done. These setups are not using protected softwareor hardware so cost is lower.

As I collect more info I'll write up a page with a general directive on how it all fits together and where the components can be found. There are various options to choose from so it's a matter of choosing just how you want to set up to begin with. I already have a collection of many different calibrations from various different cars that could be good base reference points which you can use as reference tools.

I'm wanting to set up with a real time 808 ECU, then when I have arrived at a suitable calibration, unplug the modified real time unit and replace it with a stocko 808 with a recalibrated chip in the MemCal. It then appears to be a non reprogrammable ECU which I'm sure is soon going to be an issue once federal guidelines come into force. Having a user programmable ECU fitted is going to be a defectable item if you read the info regarding the federal vehicle modification proposals.

Even with a reprogrammable 808 fitted it's no great deal if you can burn that calibration onto a MemCal to get the defect lifted. What's going to happen if the calibration for your name brand ECU needs to be replaced to pass inspection? How can you adapt the name brand setup into something that appears to be non user programmable?

As for some myths circulating about the 808 being inferior in quality or functionality, I'm still yet to hear any valid points where it falls behind other systems that are of use in a Gemini conversion. The only one so far is that it can't be used in real time mode and I can prove that isn't the case. A bog stock straight out of a production car Delco 808 certainly isn't reprogrammable on the fly. It can have alternative calibrations fitted by way of changing Memcals.

Robbo · Post by **Robbo** » 13 Dec 2005, 17:28

all this talk about spending a lot on setting up an 808 so it can be reprogrammed etc... have you ever read into the megasquirt poida, specifically megasquirt-n-spark?

While it will technically be illegal because it can be tuned in real time, its usually in a boring stock looking case that should go unnoticed.

Post by **Poida** » 13 Dec 2005, 18:00

I have been interested in the Delco for years. Until recently I had not been as intent on using the system as I am now. I know there are plenty of alternatives around and I did look at the megasquirt but I still prefer the Delco.

Those prices I quoted are for proprietry KalMaker components. Cut them to somewhere between a third to a half and that's the cost of what I intend to be paying. I just mentioned the KalMaker because I know it exists and it is a real time package. It's not what I intend on finishing up with. I don't want gear that has a protection system built in. That just forces users to spend more buying proprietry parts.

Bottom line is no inspector is going to reject an ECU that can be identified as a stock item. Right down to the part number sticker on the case. Let them remove the cover and see a MemCal in the slot and what can they say? It's just my choice but I think it's a wise choice in the long run. Providing the MemCal isn't at fault (highly unlikely) every single component is readily available at virtually any wrecker and at dirt cheap prices. So a breakdown should be a minor event where with a name brand ECU there isn't a lot you can do. One of the criteria I persist in when it comes to an EFI conversion, no matter what sort of conversion I do is that parts are freely available at a minimal price.

I hate having to search for exotic parts because you are at the mercy of part sellers. Mind you the G series twin cam certainly falls into that category but it's never about to be my daily runner. I can rest comfortably in the fact the EMS won't be the thing that stops me in a break down if I do happen to use the 808 to run it.

archangel62 · Post by **archangel62** » 27 Dec 2005, 07:19

It's great to see you are so dedicated. If there's a way of using the Delco 808 in such a way, I'm sure we'll figure it out - or you will, and we will be forever at your mercy. lol.

I can do some simple Visual Basic programming if it's of any use. But anything remotely difficult I cannot guaruntee.

Robbo · Post by **Robbo** » 27 Dec 2005, 14:02

I don't know what you are going to do with visual basic and a delco 808? but I'm actually a vb.net developer by profession

archangel62 · Post by **archangel62** » 30 Dec 2005, 03:50

I was thinking a program to interpret the data on the Delco and make a visual representation, whilst allowing you to alter them in a more user-friendly manner than raw data... But I have no idea how the Delco stores it's data so I'm not sure.

EDIT: Scratch that, MemCal sounds good and already has a program for it.

Post by **Poida** » 24 Jan 2006, 01:50

Visual display of the data is already catered for. Nice graphics with all the features of the more expensive software, but it's shareware! It's free to download but they'd like you to slide them US$30 for the effort (which I will) and even if you don't it's still fully fuctional with no restrictions or timeouts.

This is the hardware I've purchased.

The device that reads & writes memory chips, emulates and datalogs. It has an internal memory chip so you can leave this attached while you work on the tune and it takes the place of the memcal.

The adapter which allows me to piggyback a programmable chip onto the original memcal while I work on setting up the engine.

The adapter to connect between a memcal and the emulator so I can read data from an original memcal chip.

Numerous DIP sockets to solder in place and enable installation in a semi permenant manner. Chips can be slipped in and out as required but still appear to be 'factory installed' to anyone not very familiar with the Delco.

Numerous chips used for storing the data. Three different types of reprogrammable chips, one which can hold up to 16 individual sets of tuning instructions and can be switched between any one of them, even while driving the car.

All the hardware has been developed and manufactured by Craig Moates.

archangel62 · Post by **archangel62** » 24 Jan 2006, 07:15

Wow, you bought a MemCal burner! Now I'm starting to wonder (again) about Megasquirt vs. Delco.

I'm interested in the thing that lets you choose between up to 16 different tune settings whilst on the road.

Post by **Poida** » 25 Jan 2006, 04:42

This chip adapter is the key to it.

Different combinations of flash memory chips along with different jumper settings will provide different combinations of layouts. Notice how the socket is a 32 pin socket. Count the pins on the chips I showed. Two have 28 pins and one has 32.

The 32 pin chip has greatest capacity and allows multiple bins to be store. It's a 512k chip (29F040) so it can hold 16x32k bins or 8x64k bins.

The two 28 pin chips are 512k (27SF512) and 256k (29C256) but different in their architecture. One of them is able to store 2x32k bins.

Keep in mind the original chips in the memcals are only 128k (27C128) or 256k (27C256) chips. Most are 128k chips.

Some years back I remember GM already used a similar thing with the Corvette. They had two key locks. One was a normal ignition key and the other switched modes. Normals corvette stick in the seat mode and a second "valet" mode that limited features so the car was no where near as much fun to drive. I could do the same by using the two bin mode and setting it up to be switched with a key. One mode is full on the way I like it to drive, and the other is "valet" mode where you can make all kinds of difference, limit the ignition timing advance, cut off points at set engine rpm, even limits on a maximum attainable road speed.

Food for thought.